Prolobe Online Absolute Pitch Ear Training

Hi guys and gals, BigRed here.

I'm a musician, and new to this site. I've been using Prolobe for 2 days now -- just started level 4. I also use APA by Chris Aruffo regularly, and have finished the 74-avenue demo and replayed it a few times already (using all piano & guitar tones).

Chris is the one who recommended I check out this site, and I'm very glad he did! It really helps to fill in the gaps by covering aspects of AP training which aren't covered by his prog "APA", and vice-versa. I believe they complement one another well. Which leads me to a question:

Do you guys consider these 2 programs to be enough? With just APA and Prolobe, could I theoretically (eventually) acquire a "well-rounded", musically usable, TOTALLY COMPLETE set of AP skills? If not, what else should I add to my practice regimen? (Aside from a hefty dose of dedication and patience.)

I'm still on the lookout for other software and/or practice techniques which could help me to take my AP practice sessions to the next level.

-BigRed

well rounded ap?
music is about relationships
relative pitch is much more important and useful

I'd hardly call Prolobe combined with APA a complete package, since the structures one is tested on in such programs are completely random, whereas music is not -- you will NEVER develop perfect pitch if the only ear training you ever do are these two programs alone (it's a great start, though). Moreover, one must also learn what a pitch DOES, and not just what a pitch IS -- something that melody triggers alone will never teach you.

@ Rarcher:

You said: "...relative pitch is much more important and useful..."

I never said it wasn't!

Besides, I already possess good RP. I know that absolute pitch is merely the "icing on the cake" -- that's the whole reason I'm here!

@ Nikolaus:

Hi, Nick! (Can I call you that?) :)

You said "...The structures one is tested on in such programs are completely random, whereas music is not. You will NEVER develop perfect pitch if the only ear training you ever do are these two programs alone (it's a great start, though)..."

Which brings me back to my question:

What else should I be doing (right now) to begin "bridging the gap" between ear-training and real-world application?

Also, how does the fact that music isn't random factor in?


You said: "...One must also learn what a pitch DOES, and not just what a pitch IS -- something that melody triggers alone will never teach you..."

Well, I never wanted to be too reliant on melody triggers anyway. I'm planning to drop them ASAP, but for right now they are "temporary training wheels."

When you say "what a pitch DOES", are you referring to its Harmonic Function or voice leading/tension within a given scale?

Nevermind. I suppose the answer to my above question is to "transcribe Bach cantatas or chorales".

Well I've been training regularly on Prolobe for a while now, and I've noticed something: It's VERY difficult to prevent RELATIVE PITCH from getting in the way!

Once I answer a single test question correctly using AP, I CAN'T HELP BUT HEAR THE INTERVAL between it and the next tone. This "forces" me to use RP instead. :(

I've been trying something to prevent this: I will answer a question correctly. Then deliberately NOT answer the following question at all (allowing the time to run out for that question.) Then I will answer the next (3rd) question. These few "minutes of silence" clear my short term memory, forcing me to use long term AP. It brings down my score though, because whenever the timer runs out it counts against me.

contrary to what you've been told, good relative pitch has nothing to do with assessing the distance between any two tones. Depending upon the key one is in, each individual pitch takes on a particular harmonic identity -- this is why chord function exists, because chords are constructed from intervals, which are then in turn constructed from individual pitches. Ever easily enough recognize the tonic triad in the music you listen to? That's because your brain is hearing the collective functions of the first, third, and fifth scale-degrees being played together in order to create a feeling of resolution within that particular key. Likewise, all the other pitches have their own unique harmonic identities as well -- even the so-called out-of-key pitches (all five of them). My advice is to stop thinking in terms of distance at all and just focus on the individual pitches themselves.

relative pitch does not interfere with the development of perfect pitch -- on the contrary, having good RP actually speeds up the development of perfect pitch.

here ya go:

www.ranblake.com/pdf_files/PrimacyoftheEar.pdf

http://www.miles.be/art_singer.html

lemme know what you think.

also get Functional Ear Trainer

I already read both of those articles you posted (Primacy of the Ear and Banacos "pencil on a piano" method.)

I also already have Functional Ear Trainer.

As far as the PrimacyoftheEar.pdf is concerned, it goes on and on about third stream music and the need to "use the ear" more than the eye (which I already knew intuitively, and have been doing for quite some time now.)

I think you misunderstood my previous post. It's not that I'm "scared" to ACQUIRE relative pitch. I've had very well developed relative pitch for years now. I just don't want to unintentionally "activate" my RP while training to acquire AP.

You also mentioned above I should avoid thinking in terms of distance, and try to listen only to the specific note which I'm being tested on at the moment -- Easier said than done.

And YES, you are right about one thing: There IS a difference between "relative pitch of any 2 random tones", and with regard to the CURRENT KEY! In fact, it's much easier (and faster) to deduce a note based on scale degree RP than it is with the "other kind" of relative pitch. But of course, I don't want to use either one of these types of RP during a Prolobe training session; I want to isolate and excercise my AP muscles instead.

But here's the problem: I always hear the "D#/Eb" as the tonic in course 1, and "C" as the tonic in course 2.

Sorry if I come off as a whiner. I really AM trying to find the most practical, efficacious practice methodologies, and put them together into a comprehensive, daily regimen.

Hey man you don't sound like a whiner, just like you feel like you're being talked down to or something (not my intention).

Actually, no. I don't think I'm being talked down to at all. It's obvious to me that your intention is to help me.

Now if your name started with "Mae" and ended with "nth" I might think otherwise... :)

that was a joke... sort of.

So wait, you're telling me that if you wait long enough in between questions you don't hear the next pitch as any scale-degree in particular? I always do no matter how long I wait, which is why I had to devise a new set of drills that would develop RP and PP simultaneously.

You know who's gonna kill me if he reads this. ;)

Well... Yes, actually! :)

That's why I wait between questions: To allow my memory of the previous note to fade. That way I will have no reference point, and be forced to use AP instead!

Theoretically.

BTW, a little off-topic: Aren't forums the darndest things?

You can't use tone of voice or body language to signal what you mean. Which suffice it to say, leads to misunderstandings.

For example: If someone completes a lesson, but does poorly (in thier own eyes, anyway) and I say "GOOD JOB" -- They might mistakenly assume that my comment was sarcastic or patronising! Even though that was not my intent.

If I use a lot of CAPS LOCK when I speak it does not mean I am angry. I just like using it for emphasis.

And with regard to the above posts: Don't worry! You've been very polite and helpful, Nick. And it came across in a polite way, too! :)

So far on Prolobe, I've read the first 6 pages of forum posts, as well as the last 2 (page 40 and 41). Wasn't sure if I should start at the beginning or the end.

There are several older threads asking about the issue of RP "getting in the way" during lessons. Wasn't sure if I should necropost in them though, which is why I brought up the issue here. And it's still not a resolved issue.

I'm not qualified to say this, but:

Prolobe is great, but definitely has gaps that need to be filled. Perhaps "dictating (transcribing) 2-part pieces in a style I enjoy" would be enough to fill in those gaps.

In any event, I've noticed that passive AP is easier for me than active AP.

In other words:

When I first begin a lesson, answering the very first question requires AP. Passive AP. This is something which I have been getting (very slowly) better at. I'm always on the lookout for methods to "isolate" my AP muscle for maximum pumps, hardness, and vascularity.

Yes that's a bodybuilding metaphor. No I'm not a bodybuilder.

Right now I'm toying with the idea of listening to a "series of random tones, followed by silence" in between every question in a lesson. Of course, doing this reduces my speed to the point where I'll fail the lesson. But hopefully it'll "blank out" my short-term note memory (and thus RP as well.)

However, when it comes to "sing a note, then check yourself", I don't do too well. Yet.

"You also mentioned above I should avoid thinking in terms of distance, and try to listen only to the specific note which I'm being tested on at the moment -- Easier said than done."
______________________________________________________________

BR. can I call you that? Lol

So one thing I've learned through time taking the opposite approach of most people (working on R.P. after A.P.) is this: There are TWO types of listening when training your body.
*** ear. I often found my self similarly but the opposite of you hearing the Pitch before the Interval. (hearing C followed by G instead of a perfect 5th) contrary to what you may believe. that doesn't mean you have failed.

Type 1. instinct (HEARING)
Type 2. decision (LISTENING)

when I heard a G after a C I would know the answer technically. (P5) but I didn't know the answer ultimately (relatively).
So all you must do is listen deeper. KNOW that it is a C because you hear C absolutely.
but now listen deeper to the other sound it gives you. it's relative sound. don't give up because you know the technical answer (P5). keep listening until you know the answer YOU ARE ASKING. hear it's relative sound. Your ears don't stop listening once you know the answer is (PS). You do. So allow them to continue to hear past the instinctual stage to that of a stage where you are deciding what you want to hear.


Now I know that you are having the apposite problem but this method is backwards compatible. I know this because I do it sometimes with learning A.P. now that my R.P. is not as poor.

Once you hear it relatively/absolutely (what every your instinctual hearing maybe) know it accept it then omit the knowledge.
Hear deeper until your hear it the way you are training to hear it,(in your case absolutely) once you hear it that way remember the feeling it gives you. then you must listen for that same feeling every time you hear the note. REGARDLESS of it it's before OR after you hear it relatively.

Over time you'll find that the window of time it takes you to hear the note Absolutely after hearing it Relatively will narrow. if train well enough you will be able to decide how you want to hear.

I hope that helped.


- Co!in

don't sweat the rp in here - with my original account in here i got to level 20something mostly with rp
but the chroma grows and sneaks back

"...Over time you'll find that the window of time it takes you to hear the note Absolutely after hearing it Relatively will narrow. if train well enough you will be able to decide how you want to hear.

I hope that helped."
________________________________________________________________

Yes, actually! :)

Thanx.

And sure you can call me BR.

Hey coloud. So if I'm understanding this correctly, you're saying that as long as I don't make a CONCIOUS effort to hear the interval using RP, it shouldn't inadvertantly train the wrong muscle so to speak. And eventually I'll strengthen AP up to or perhaps beyond my RP (which is what I want.)

Am I right?

I hope that's the case. Cuz I just didn't want to breeze through the first 20+ lessons at a fast rate by accidentally "cheating".

Well I more so mean if you make concious decision to hear using A.P.
even if you unconciously hear the answer using R.P. than you'll continue to train the correct muscles.

basically don't just wiz through because you know the answer.
after you hear it with R.P. don't answer the question UNTIL you hear it with A.P. I'm sure you can tell the difference at this stage in your training between the 2 different types of pitch recognition >:)

I hope that answered your question.

Yes, I can tell the difference, but I still don't exactly know what I'm supposed to be listening for?

In other words, I KNOW what RP is, but I DON'T KNOW what AP is!

AP is SO $@#%ing esoteric! It has been likened to a "gut" feeling, an emotion, a taste, a color, a "4D shape", shape of your throat, a resonance, a "different kind of" timbre, and everything else you can imageine! But I still don't grasp it and cannot recognise it when I hear it.

I suppose it's like chi energy. You have to experience it, because it cannot be taught or explained. Right?

exactly. you're doomed.

(I'm kidding) Lol
do you have Skype or anything?

lol. Thanks! :p

No, I don't have skype. But I have IRC and email. Choose your poison.

ah I don't have IRC.

if you want to HEAR absolutely do this drill. but start with two note intervals ONLY WHITE KEYS with your eyes closed.
spin in a circle before if you're too familiar with he piano.


"confining yourself to the white keys (or better yet the Prolobe syllabus for course two), play a random two or three note chord on your piano/synthesizer (in this case CDF)

now (once again), whether or not you are able to identify the pitches/scale-degrees that comprise this particular chord, sing the bottom pitch.

then sound the chord again, listening for that bottom pitch (C)

then sound the chord again, listening for the middle pitch (D in this case). You very well might not be able to hear the middle pitch no matter how much you listen for it, so go ahead and listen to D removed from the other pitches before playing the cluster again.

rinse and repeat with the top tone, and then do the same with other intervals/chords. You can also sing single pitches upon hearing them, just be sure (especially with the singles because it is too easy to do otherwise) that your attention is completely on the pitches themselves and not on the various melodic/harmonic intervals they might form, lest you develop some sort of annoying habit that will be hard to undo. It's okay to be slightly mindful of what pitch was heard previously (oftentimes it's involuntary), just don't go so far as to consciously cultivate any sense of relationship between the pitches themselves" - Nikolas